Working with the HTML5 Community
We’re always excited to engage with members of the W3C including the developers of other browsers as well as the broader web development community to help shape the direction of emerging Web standards, particularly HTML5. This includes participating in events like TPAC, which we wrote about in November, and on-going engagement with various working groups. Patrick recently talked about joining the SVG working group, and I’d like to share a brief list of other happenings on the way to making HTML5 well-defined, well-tested, and accessible:
- Providing feedback on HTML5
Tony Ross, Internet Explorer Program Manager, and Jonas Sicking of Mozilla, led a discussion about extensibility in HTML5 at TPAC after our initial submission. While the working group hasn’t resolved the issue yet, we think the event helped inform everyone and generate the different proposals submitted since. - Testing HTML5
Kris Krueger, Internet Explorer Test Lead, was appointed facilitator of the W3C HTML5 Testing Task Force. The task force has set up necessary infrastructure like a wiki, Bugzilla, a work item tracker, and CVS repository for test cases. With that in place, they’ve started to review DOM Level 2 HTML test cases to use as the start of HTML5 testing. As with CSS2.1, we think a good test suite is critical to ensuring a specification results in interoperable implementations. - Ensuring new specifications enable accessibility
We care deeply about an accessible web so besides implementing accessibility-focused browser features, we’re working with Apple, IBM, and other interested parties to ensure the new HTML5 <canvas> and <video> elements have great accessibility support so everyone can use sites leveraging them. This work is driven by the Accessibility Task Force. Together, we’re working on <canvas> HTML prototypes to use as ‘proof of concepts’ to ensure the feature is well-designed, as discussed in a recent teleconference. - Indexed DB Proposal
Together with Mozilla, we’re excited about a new design for local storage called Indexed DB. We think this is a great solution for the web. Look for another post with more information about this proposal. In the meantime, you can read the latest working draft. - DOM Level 3 Events
Travis Leithead, Internet Explorer Program Manager, continues to help close down open issues with the latest editor’s draft. It’s been awhile since the working group published the last working draft and the group plans to publish an update soon that will improve clarity for implementers and web authors alike. On a recent teleconference, we noted that DOM Level 2 Events was published as a Recommendation nearly 10 years ago; it’s exciting to have the next milestone in sight!
Finally, you can read an interview with Paul Cotton from Microsoft and co-Chair of the W3C HTML Working Group on the W3C Blog.
Adrian Bateman
Program Manager
Comments
Anonymous
January 01, 2003
HTML5 rigor is outstanding. Just like going up against Jenner when you're still crawling on all fours.Anonymous
January 01, 2003
Great, all I need is a newer, more powerful way for marketing scum to put their filthy hands into my filesystem.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Before the complainers arrive, just want to say great stuff! Can't wait for Mix to arrive to see what you guys have been working on in action!Anonymous
March 09, 2010
In before ridiculous and unrealistic comments about IE needing to switch to Safari. Great work! Can't wait to play around with this whenever it all gets implemented.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Nice summary. Will need to take a long hard look at these papers. Much as I've not been fond of IE for a long time, by the sounds of it you're putting your efforts where they're needed. Looking forward to seeing what comes from this.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Too bad such an effort isn't being put into IE9 but at least you're helping get the HTML5 spec going for the other more modern, advanced browsers that will actually implement this stuff.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
good news, but what about compatibility with latest versions of CSS ?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Nice of you guys to remember the DOM Events spec actually exists! Yes, it has been 10 years and yes, that means IE is 10 years behind every other browser on earth. It's very exciting to "have the next milestone in sight", but does that mean that IE9 will finally have some support for it, or are we going to have to wait another 10 years ?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Web 3.0 will be about websites replacing applications and applications replacing the OS. So with that in mind the most critical thing that I would like to shed some light on is importNode and event listeners. No browser from my previous testing correctly executed attached events to imported nodes (via AJAX). That means having to use JavaScript XHTML attributes such as <element onclick="" onfocus="", etc. I'm excited about Mix and I'm very much looking forward to next week's announcements among other things.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
'That means having to use JavaScript XHTML attributes such as <element onclick="" onfocus="", etc.' Uh, no. More like jQuery/MooTools/etc and addEventListener (manually). Separate functionality from output and separate design from content. Inline styles and Javascript events are being deprecated.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Yes, I am also interested. Will Internet Explorer 9 support standard JavaScript like "addEventListener"?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
In the DOM Level 3 Events WD I didn't see anything about touch based events. Now that touch based devices are becoming more popular, is the working group thinking about that too?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Great! I really believe you are excited in doing everything you are doing and it's obvious, this job needs a lot of enthusiasm.... But, what's the matter?? What, who, and why makes you keep IE8 10 years behind ? Is it a commercial strategy? Lack of human resources?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Good to see you are back with the program!Anonymous
March 09, 2010
What about XHTML 2.0 and why is W3C moving two different standards forward?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
"On a recent teleconference, we noted that DOM Level 2 Events was published as a Recommendation nearly 10 years ago..." and you are still not supporting it in any released product. :) But, anyway, from what you are posting recently on this blog, I get the feeling you have big plans for IE9. Sincerely hope that's true!Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Sort of me too to vasko. DOM Level 3 Events are nice, but it would mean much more to my work if you supported Level 2. And that includes Mutation Events.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
@Lambros The W3C is not moving forward with XHTML 2.0, the charter for the working group expired at the end of 2009 and was not renewed. See here: http://www.w3.org/News/2009#entry-6601 The only HTML standard that the W3C is working on is HTML5.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
@Andrew Read people's posts before jumping to reply; I was advocating FOR event listeners to work correctly with imported XML.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
What about websockets, is IE working on this?Anonymous
March 09, 2010
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March 09, 2010
It is currently impossible for anyone to "implement the HTML5 spec fully" as there is no full HTML5 spec. Ask for specific features and you demonstrate that you understand reality. Ask for sweeping generalizations that don't understand the basic facts and you should rightly be ignored.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
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March 09, 2010
@Adrian Thanks for your update about "engagemente with the HTML5 Community" By the way, could you tell us something about what are your developers actually coding in IE? I mean, are they implementing Canvas support? the video element? SVG? Please, keep us informed, thanks! carlosAnonymous
March 09, 2010
Carlos: The obvious answer to your question is "No, he can't" tell you, which is why he didn't.Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Awesome, this is great news. ... I can't wait to get my hands on a build of IE9Anonymous
March 09, 2010
Don't ask about futuere features at all here but just wait for the MIX10 event.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
Very nice to see where IE is involved in creating a more consistent web experience for users.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
Sounds good. I'll be interested to see what features under discussion do hit IE 9 (and become public knowledge after MIX) but what interested me is the comment that a bugzilla has been set up. When IE 8 was in development, a lot of people on the blog were screaming they couldn't access a public bug tracker. Will the bugzilla be opened up so that developers of websites and testers can actually file bugs and see what is being done about them? Microsoft - when you really start to listen to the community, you will build a much better product. Really. Make it available to the public.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
@Phil: The author said that Bugzilla was set up for the HTML5 testcases not IE.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
So what about support for XHTML 1.0 and XHTML 1.1? They have been standards since how many years now? As far as I now Internet Explorer has zero support for them. Actually there are even parts of HTML 4 that don't work in Internet Explorer. Planning for HTML5 seems really backwards if you leave HTML4, XHTML 1.0 and XHTML 1.1 unimplemented.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
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March 10, 2010
@Reader - true. I got all excited when I saw an MS employee use the word "bugzilla". The idea of an open bug-tracking system got me so giddy there for a second I lost my mind. </sarcasm> Would still be nice if they did have an open bug tracker for IE 9 though... any comment, MSFT's?Anonymous
March 10, 2010
ok .. let us say that IE is having more steps towards the standards .. great .. but late ..because when will the standard copmpliant version of IE be at a degree of popularity that allows developpers to write standard compliant code trusting it will be readable to the majority of IE audience ?! It still will be years for developpers writing specific codes to ( specific ) legacy IEsAnonymous
March 10, 2010
@Tony Ross [MSFT] Thank you very much for your reply. The problem is that one can not attach an event listener to content imported via an AJAX request as there is naturally no way JavaScript can attach an event to code not yet received from the server. What I attempted was to scan imported XML for certain id's and should an id be found then attach the event listener. By cloning I can only make a guess that the original XML document is still somehow co-existing even after it's content has been imported to the DOM? I'm presuming this by the phrase, 'without altering or removing the source node from the original document' in reference to importNode. Would be it that after using importNode one has to somehow discard the XML file that was loaded via AJAX and then scan and attach events? For clarification all the id's are unique.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
John, can you clarify your question a bit? How are you "importing" your content specifically? How specifically were you attempting to attach an event listener?Anonymous
March 10, 2010
"Carlos: The obvious answer to your question is "No, he can't" tell you, which is why he didn't." So, basically the IE response is: "sorry folks, but we can't say nothing about what is really happing in IE; stay tuned and keep listening about conferences, engagements, talks, and the like"Anonymous
March 10, 2010
@ZippyV The WebApps working group is working on rechartering and including a specific deliverable for "touch and gesture" events.Anonymous
March 10, 2010
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March 10, 2010
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March 10, 2010
@Gerard Talbot Is there a list of those 150 fails in the CSS 2.1 testsuite that you claim? Afre all of those CSS 2.1 test fails or are there spec ambiguity issues in there as well?Anonymous
March 10, 2010
Gerard, it was fun as always to read your interrogation. I predict that, as always, it will be ignored. >Will Microsoft issue a VPAT regarding IE9? Microsoft issues a VPAT for every one of their major products. How do you know what a VPAT is and not know that?Anonymous
March 11, 2010
@Mr Talbot - I agree with all questions! I too would like to know all of those with specific interest in: "Will connect IE beta feedback be improved" The current (now closed) IE Feedback using Connect is just shy of an utter failure. If users can't submit refined test cases and in turn test/refine other users' submitted test cases then your bug tracking is doomed. A closed bug tracking system (as in not open, as well as shut!) does not work! History of pseudo-public bug tracking for IE. The IE7 bug tracking system, full of great bug reports - closed and deleted. The IE8 bug tracking system, full of great bug reports - closed (and deleted???) MSFT has officially cried wolf twice now. If you want anyone to submit bugs for IE9 (and beyond) your bug tracking must be: a.) public b.) open (not to ever be closed) c.) enable test case submission, refinement and download/run options d.) written commitment of the above If these simple things are not in place for future IE bug tracking - we have no interest in participating at all.Anonymous
March 11, 2010
Unless that's the "royal we", jesse, I'd advise you to speak for yourself.Anonymous
March 11, 2010
@KingOfEngland - I'm using "we" as a general term for those that have dedicated hours entering bug reports in the IE7 and IE8 bug tracker only to have it all deleted.. and very little if any fixed. I have no objection whatsoever to helping build a better IE by supplying good test cases and verifying bugs in IE. I object (as do all contributors I've spoken to) to wasting my efforts in a system that doesn't work well, gets shut down regularly, and doesn't supply a mechanism to upload, review, edit and re-submit test cases. We've been led to believe that this will all be fixed and get better several times now. Now the difference is that there is history. There's a chance for MSFT to change history here and make good - however if they decide not to, and developers don't help out - don't be at all surprised. If the KingOfEngland isn't part of that "we", then by all means continue on - "we" have better things to do if we want to waste time. And seriously - the capatcha thing on this blog is broken. I don't have any other tabs or windows open yet I still get errors.Anonymous
March 11, 2010
Well, here is my suggestion. We can set up an issue tracker ourselves and post everything you post on the closed tracker there. Of course, we will also have scheduled back ups for the tracker, so if anyone shuts it down, the issues are safe. Microsoft will have access to the security issues and the rest of the issues will have unrestricted access for everyone. If everything goes alright and as planned, this can become the biggest unofficial issue tracker and will probably get some attention from Microsoft. Anyone thinks that this is a good idea? If you do, I will set up an issue tracker at GoogleCode for that. Votes?Anonymous
March 11, 2010
@EricLaw [MSFT] I take it would be better to setup a standalone test case and file a report on Connect? Whenever we're able to test out a build of IE9 I'll spend the time to create and post the test case. Hope Mix goes smooth for the whole team. :-)Anonymous
March 11, 2010
@Bertil Wennergren: Please infor yourself, HTML5 replaces HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 And about XHTML 1.1: None of the big 5 implements this standard, it is actually not implementable because it's incompatible to XHTMl 1.0 - this problem was reportet so many times to the W3C but never solved. With HTML5 on the Horizon I can't think of a reason why XHTML 1.1 is needed (frankly, I'm a XHTML supporter, but frankly, I never saw an advantage in 1.1).Anonymous
March 12, 2010
While I agree Connect is incredibly poor, I don't think it's fair to lay everything at the IE team's door. Connect is clearly a pan-Microsoft project with its own development team. Unfortunately the team seems to be made up of people who were good enough to get on any other product team. I do think that a public, non-MS managed bug tracker would be an excellent idea though.Anonymous
March 12, 2010
@PhistucK - sounds like a plan to me. @jesse - the Captcha works fine under Firefox... no issues here.Anonymous
March 12, 2010
I agree with others when they say the Connect site is a fail. I reported many bugs for IE8, but I've been under the impression many unuseful questions were asked, while what really maters was difficult to publish (test cases, side notes, ...)Anonymous
March 12, 2010
So how come IE isn't cross-platform? How can you seriously expect web developers to develop with IE in mind when you only make it available for Windows? Safari? Available for Mac and Windows. Chrome? Available for Mac and Windows. Firefox? Available for Mac and Windows. IE? Internet Explorer 8 is available only on PCs running Windows. Oops. Now why would I bother wasting time developing with IE in mind if you don't even bother coming out with a version of IE for people not running Windows?Anonymous
March 12, 2010
<<<why would I bother wasting time developing with IE in mind>>> Because two out of three Internet users are using IE?Anonymous
March 13, 2010
@Todd > How can you seriously expect web developers to develop with IE in mind when you only make it available for Windows? > why would I bother wasting time developing with IE in mind if you don't even bother coming out with a version of IE for people not running Windows? Those questions were answered more than 11 years ago in "Netscape Standards Challenge": " (...) standards-compliant browser provides developers and end users with the following benefits: (...)
reduced cost for content and application development by enabling development to a single specification
(...)
freedom of choice by reducing switching costs between vendors and applications
(...) Web standards were not designed or intended to be used in isolation from each other, with only piecemeal support of their features, or on specific platforms only. Web standards provide a platform-, vendor-, and device-independent foundation " Internet Archive Wayback Machine on this link: home.netscape.com/browsers/future/standards.html If IE8 was truly web-standards-compliant with stable, mature web standards (HTML 4, CSS 2.1, DOM 2 interfaces, ECMAscript 3rd edition, etc), then web developers would not have to test any of their web-standards-compliant webpages in any particular web browser. Right now, the latest IE version still dramatically fails publicly accessible test suites on DOM 1 Core, DOM 2 HTML, DOM 2 Events, DOM 2 Core and over 150 CSS 2.1 test suite testcases. One last detail. Chrome is available under Linux. Opera is available under all 3 major operating systems. Konqueror 4.4 can be used in all 3 major operating systems. regards, Gérard Talbot
Anonymous
March 13, 2010
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March 13, 2010
Really: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/firefox-chrome-opera,2558-10.html Or try to run IE on Sputnik and feel the fail http://sputnik.googlelabs.com/ will take years until IE catches up with others browser, PLEASE use webkit or even Gecko, and save usAnonymous
March 13, 2010
please add opacity, text-indent, text-shadow and border-radius css3 attributes in IE9! And also proper @font-face which can load ttf and otf fonts anti-alias!Anonymous
March 13, 2010
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March 14, 2010
"@Bertil Wennergren: Please infor yourself, HTML5 replaces HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0" Replaces? Both will be vastly used for years, probably decades. HTML5 is not even a finished standard, and it's not much used. So it's ridiculous to ignore the standards that are here now, are being used now, and focus only on a standard that is yet to come. I support HTML5, but browsers need to support HTML 4 and XHTML 1.0 first. Then they can move on to HTML5. Do you really think that Microsoft will drop all support for HTML 4, just because HTML "replaces" it? "And about XHTML 1.1: None of the big 5 implements this standard, it is actually not implementable because it's incompatible to XHTML 1.0". Of course it is implementable. It works quite well in Firefox. I use it a lot. But XHTML 1.1 is indeed not used very much. If MSIE fully supported HTML 4 and XHTML 1.0, but not XHTML 1.1., I wouldn't complain very loudly.Anonymous
March 15, 2010
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March 15, 2010
http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-phone-7-browser-is-based-on-internet-explorer-7 MS still sabotaging open web standards by pushing outdated, obsolete browsers that can't even render Acid2 correctly.Anonymous
March 16, 2010
RE: "DOM level 2 Events" -- this should have been implemented in IE 7, much less IE8! So having it--finally--arrive in IE_9_ is underwhelming, to say the least. Since take-up of IE9 will (presumably) take quite some time after it is released (as with previous releases of IE), Developers will still have to deal with IE_8_ for a long time to come. Effectively, it means we STILL can't use a standard event model. At least until the installed base of IE8 (and earlier versions) goes way down. Or, maybe, when IE10 comes out. NOT impressed.Anonymous
March 16, 2010
Wow, I am impressed. I really thought addEventListener (and such) would be skipped again. Congratulations for starting in the right way. I also like the planned 8 week updates (though I would have preferred even less, say, almost weekly updates, like the Google Chrome Dev channel releases). By the way, GMail is not working (you can reach the inbox, but nothing works there) in IE9 standards mode. A JavaScript error is triggered. I suppose it is because of the not yet supported stuff, but maybe not. Hopefully, it would be more usuable later. Also, what about the Video and Audio tags? come on. Nice progress. :)Anonymous
March 16, 2010
Wow, I am impressed. I really thought addEventListener (and such) would be skipped again. Congratulations for starting in the right way. I also like the planned 8 week updates (though I would have preferred even less, say, almost weekly updates, like the Google Chrome Dev channel releases). By the way, GMail is not working (you can reach the inbox, but nothing works there) in IE9 standards mode. A JavaScript error is triggered. I suppose it is because of the not yet supported stuff, but maybe not. Hopefully, it would be more usable later. Also, what about the Video and Audio tags? come on. Nice progress. :)Anonymous
March 16, 2010
@Gerard Talbot Regarding your 7th point - we are definitely working to improve the Connect experience. Connect already supports attachments, so you can submit test cases - however, it's true that they're not currently visible to other users. There are privacy concerns that have made this a challenge. That said, in the coming months you can expect improvements to the IE Connect experience that will impact state fields and attachments. @jesse If you check our recent blog posts you'll see we're addressing many of your comments. @Jon Thank you for raising a very important point. I encourage people with feedback for the Connect tool itself to direct it to their Connect Improvement site: http://connect.microsoft.com/connect/Anonymous
March 18, 2010
Everyone - you can spread the word. The unofficial public tracker for Internet Explorer is now up and running at GoogleCode. http://code.google.com/p/openbrowserissuetracker/issues/list I am posting this comment twice - one for this post and one for the newest post. Note that if it does not receive the proper attention after a certain amount of time, I will cease to maintain it.